In this episode of The Inner Chief podcast, I speak to Angela Tsoukatos, CEO and 20 years executive team member, on pivotal career moments, how to focus on core business, and the most effective ways the Board and C-Suite can work together.

Angela is an experienced Executive with a successful track record in Australia’s largest water utility, local government, and the Not-for-Profit sector, having held senior roles in Corporate Public Affairs & Company Secretary, Customer Services, People Leadership & Culture, and Corporate Services.

Angela was the CEO of Participate Australia up until May 2023, facilitating a successful merger with SydWest Multicultural Services, which she is now the Chair of. She is also a member Director with SSI, is the Chair of SSI Legal, and was recently appointed to the Board of the NSW Energy and Water Ombudsman as a community director.

Angela is passionate about ethical and inclusive leadership and creating constructive cultures where people live the values, put clients first and work together towards a fairer society for all.

She holds a Bachelor of Social work, a Master of Management (Public Sector), is a Graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors and a certified Gallup Strengths coach. In 2018, Angela was selected as one the Top 50 NSW Public Sector Women.

In this CEO Masterclass we will share:

✅ The 4 fundamental questions she asks when taking on a new role

✅ How to manage key priorities to ensure focus on core business

✅ On turning a toxic relationship around to one which flourished and changed her career decisively, and

✅ Getting boards and executive teams to work together properly.

Connecting with Angela Tsoukatos

You can connect with Angela via LinkedIn.

Books and resources

• Lean In – by Sheryl Sandberg
• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People – by Stephen Covey

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• Alison Gaines, MD & Founder of Gaines Advisory, on Hiring great executives, becoming an NED, and characteristics of successful boards. 
• Scott Williamson, Managing Director of Blackstone Minerals, on The CEO-Chair relationship, taking career risks and injecting fun into business. 

“When I think back, I haven't had a grand plan. For me, it's been more about values alignment. Will I add value? Will I grow? Can I work for the person?”

On early career lessons

• I got feedback that I should be leading more from the front and speaking up more. So I did a number of things. I got a coach. I read Cheryl Sandberg's book Lean In. I accumulated all these tips. And so I started speaking up more and owning what I was saying. For example, I was previously saying “I” more than “we”.
• It made me think that I hadn't really integrated those things into my way. And I reflected that sometimes a leader does need to lead from the front and take charge, but you don't always have to do that. You don't have to take credit for other people's ideas and you can let others shine. So I guess it's a bit of a hybrid now that I've come up with.
• It's a much-used word these days, but you need to do it authentically. But, the reality is that it's not going to sit comfortably. I was actually wearing an ill-fitted suit. People can pick that up that it's not you. And the other thing that I had to embrace is that some of my qualities, people would describe as being soft, but they were actually part of my superpower.

On asking “Can I improve things?” in a new role

• When I took on the people leadership and culture role I didn't have a background in HR.
• I valued the function and I thought, what can I bring here?
• If you're running a people leadership and culture function, your client is the CEO, the Exec, the leaders, the frontline leaders, the staff.
• What do they want? What do they expect? And also, what is the strategy of the organisation? 
• I find that sometimes enabling functions have frameworks and tool sets and all kinds of things and they want to just impose those on the organisation. So what I did was based on learnings, particularly from customer services, which is to understand the client and the expectations, understand the strategy and align the work we were doing before to this new role. 

On leading an enabling function

• Start with understanding who your client and your customer is and understanding the organisational strategy and look to support that.
• It could be just the timing. So they want to do sophisticated talent management, but the organisation hasn't got its act together on recruitment and everyone's crying out for a good recruitment. 
• It's about working together. It's about collaborating. But I'd say to all parties, resist imposing your way on the organisation, sit back, work together and come up with one plan
• We had a strategy and a business plan and then we had all these other plans and all these other priority projects. And a lot of that was coming from people looking at it from their lens. What do I want to do rather than what does the organisation need at this time? Cause some of it can be just about timing. As I said, Most of the initiatives will be good initiatives, it's just not the right time

On core business focus and prioritisation

• Where I've seen the greatest success is where an organisation has been able to focus and where a CEO and an exec have a small set of manageable priorities. I think the key is taking that long view and it's not about you. It's about the organisation and depending on the organisation, that's about being able to look out, 5, 10, or 20 years.
• Assuming where you're aligned on the vision, values and mission. And I think also be honest in where you sit in the marketplace, and your competitive advantage, like people think that can be all things to all people, but organisations can't and you've got to be honest about your strengths and have a prioritisation process that includes people. 
• It's not something that the exec does, or the board does, or a handful of people do, and then you present it like, ta-da, here it is. You involve people, so they're part of that process. And I say you do that from the very beginning
• You've got to resist the pet projects. No organisation can be good at everything.
• Zaklina Craig and I, when we worked together at Sydney Water, we used to talk about everybody wanting their CV moment. That's what they want to do. I want to do these three things. I want to do these five things because I want to put that on my CV and look, it's great to have an individual with passion and pride but if you are there for the organisation to succeed, you've got to get behind that process and park some of those things

On achieving personal growth in a role

• Will I grow? But more recently I've learned through a strengths retest that it's actually one of my strengths. So, I actually enjoy learning.
• I probably should have put my hand up earlier and said, “this really isn't for me”. If you want someone that has a real strength in this place, you need someone else. It was hard to grow in that situation, when you know in some ways you feel like you're second guessing yourself.
• When I think back, I haven't had a grand plan. For me, it's been more about values alignment. Will I add value? Will I grow? Can I work for the person?
• Can I work for that person and actually deliver the things that are being expected?

On turning a difficult relationship around

•  I do think you can do anything if you've got, the right attitude, team and support
• At times, I haven't always had the right mindset. I've been in situations where there hasn't been a fit. Even with the person, I'm reporting to, and at times I wasn't quite sure how to respond to that.
• It was that feedback around leading from the front, that I have and had, over the years. And so once I did those things, it changed overnight.
• I was in a bit of a situation where I wasn't quite sure what was going on. So I kept trying all these things, but I wasn't understanding what the client, actually wanted.
• You could say perhaps she wasn't supporting me, but I think it was a misunderstanding, in different styles and not getting to the heart of what was needed.
• The mindset before was she didn't like me. I can't do this too it's not about whether she likes me or not, it's about expectations. And I can do this.
• The politics do change whether you call them politics or just complex stakeholder relations, it's probably more the latter. But it's, staying true to self and when you've got that kind of complexity, whether it's in within an organisation or outside an organisation, staying true to the principles, the values, the vision. But obviously, you've got to also flex and adapt and have, I guess, collaborative spirit

On diversity and experience

• I think it depends on what you want from your career. I mean, if you're quite happy just to be a specialist or an expert then I guess it is fine to just kind of stay in that sort of, pool, but if you want to be more senior, so even if you're starting, a great finance guy or girl and you want to be a CFO in a company, then it becomes more about strategy and leadership and leading people.
• I don't think it's essential. I don't think there's a playbook for an executive. It depends on who you are and what you want to achieve. But if you want to play at the executive level, or a board level, or interact capably with a board, I think diversity helps.
• Even for enabling functions, I've found that if they can get close to the customer, that is, that they come into a contact centre and listen to calls or go out in a truck with someone that's in a field, their understanding of the business and how they need to serve, improves.

On the practicalities of bringing people on a journey

• How you do it practically is you involve them from the beginning. You're clear about what the process is and people know about that and the process that you're going to go through around like the vision, values, behaviours, then whether you call them your goals, your initiatives, your metrics, you involve them, every step of the way.
• The other thing that you do though, is you say, what's non-negotiable, what's not up for grabs.
• You can't just go through the motions. You've got to be prepared to listen and you've got to be prepared to adapt.
• Yes, it's great to get input, but don't forget to feedback to the people. What you've taken on board and what you haven't and why. I think people will accept things if there's a process that has integrity and you're clear about the parameters and you're looping back with people.
• I remember and I still feel guilty about this to the day, how announcing some changes that actually impacted people and hadn't quite had the conversations that I should have had. I would never do that today. And I'm mortified that I did it, but it was part of my learning, I'd never approached change that way

On the differences between an exec role and CEO

• The main difference is the breadth of responsibilities and accountabilities
• it is different from being a CEO from being an exec
• And I think I did feel that sort of weight of responsibility. As a CEO and interacting with the board and making sure the board, was well briefed, able to do its job. Whereas in the past as a GM, someone, a lot of people have said to me that I've got an overdeveloped sense of responsibility

On managing the executive team as a board

• The hardest thing is knowing when to intervene and when to pull back. What do they say? Noses in fingers out.
• So you're not there running the place. You're not the one that's pulling whatever lever it is, whether it's technology lever or the people in culture lever, the operational lever, you're not that person. It's the CEO and the leadership team
• Probably ask more questions, intervene a little bit more and when to actually trust. You should always trust, but sometimes you might pick up something that you don't think it's right. It's having the wherewithal to have a constructive line of questioning. So you get to the bottom of things so that you are addressing, the risks in the organisation, the opportunities
• You have to actually trust and give people the space and give them the space to do it their way. And you can't fit whatever retrofit, whatever you've learned.
• You've got to have the wherewithal and the EQ to know when to, stick your nose in and ask the questions and other times to trust, and let people get on with it. Cause people that have been in sectors know an awful lot about how they work, how the industry works, how the stakeholders work, and you've got to respect that. I guess that contribution, that knowledge experience. 
• If you come at it from a constructive point of view and you are there to support and challenge, but you get that balance right and you build that trust. Then I think execs will be a little bit more open. They won't try to manage you.
• If you have constructive relationships, do your own research, connect with stakeholders, go out and do a field visit, and go to events so you get a better sense of the business. But I think it is about constructive relationships and trust. And also directors need to park their egos at the door from time to time, like we all do.

On dealing with the board as an executive team

• First and foremost, understand the role of the board and understand that the buck does actually stop with them. I think most of the directors that I know feel that, quite deeply. 
• It is important to respect those roles and responsibilities. Boards are not just there to rubber stamp what management comes up with. They really need to own the strategy, the governance, and some aspects of the stakeholder relations. 
• Treat directors like people, connection is personal, while you respect their roles. 
• Think about what they need in order to do their job and make the risk-based decisions or take opportunities.
• He used to say we had a tendency to tell the boards everything that we know rather than what they need to know, okay? And that's not what they need to know as in managing your filter, it's about what they need to make, the decisions. And I think it's to be honest and, as I said, don't filter, don't sugarcoat. 
• You don't need to be alarmist, but be honest when things aren't going to plan, no boards want to be surprised. They don't want to be told six months later or a year later. 
• If you've got good reporting, obviously, that helps a lot, you got good KPIs and you can see the signals, if things are going amber or whatever. 
• But it also is useful to flag things up, proactively. 
• I've found that over the years, the boards react much better and in fact, they will help to try and solve an issue rather than if they're surprised.

On her high-performance teams principles

• It is important to have people that have the right level of workability. They have the right knowledge, skills, experience, but also another one that they talk about is values, preferences, and inhibitors. 
• Do people actually value the work? Do they prefer doing the work? Do they have things that are going to get in the way? And then if you've kind of got that in terms of the team, and I'm very much about a champion team. 
• So Lencioni’s work, rather than a team of champions and making sure that you've got a team that not only has strengths individually, but complementary strengths. And those skills, those are respected.
• The other thing for me is having an operating cadence.
• The routine whether it's the monthly meeting that you have with a direct report or whatever you've agreed or whether it's your monthly management meetings. Your quarterly staff briefings, I think people expect leaders. They want people to be visionary and inspiring and all of those things, but they also like predictability.
• You also want them to be people that people will look up to. You are a role model and people won't follow people if they're not role modelling the behaviours that they talk about. 

On her number one interview question

• I ask them to imagine themselves a year down the track and perhaps later three years down the track and they bump into someone and someone asks them about their role and what they'd have achieved.

Final message of wisdom and hope for future leaders 

• As leaders, it's important to lead for today and tomorrow and try and create a sustainable world. 
• I think it's important to play the long game, it's not about you. 
• If it becomes about you, then you've lost sight of what it's really about.
• I'd also encourage leaders to know what their strengths are and try and play to their strengths. That doesn't mean you don't manage weaknesses, but we do know that if people play to their strengths, they're going to be more engaged, more productive. 
• People do look for and expect authentic leadership and they can see it when it's not there. Do what you say. My definition of integrity is do what you say, if you commit. follow through. If you can't, then be open about that and talk to people and adjust as you go. 
• It really is important to deliver. Deliver what you say, you know, don't sort of do half a job or have 10 priorities and only do three. 
• I've probably grown, the most when I've been thrown in the deep end. And when I've learned, when I've got things wrong it does really help shape you. 
• Learn to have fun along the way. It's part of it's not about you, don't take yourself too seriously and always remember to leave time for what makes your heart sing. 
• Corporate athletes tend to just stay on the treadmill. Whereas real athletes have downtime, they rejuvenate, they have their ice baths, they do whatever. And corporate athletes often run so much that they sometimes burn out

Stay epic,

Greg